Universal's latest Blu-ray-related initiative, called the "flipper disc" (the Blu-ray version of the controversial HD DVD combo discs, with hidef on one side of the platter and DVD on the other) was met wit skepticism by the enthusiast community. Upon receiving the first flipper BDs, Blu-ray.com reviewer Kenneth Brown tested them thoroughly and came back with the reassurance that the discs are well manufactured and work smoothly in a variety of players. Single-discs with artwork may be preferred for aesthetic reasons, but that is a relatively minor concern.
The flipper editions of 'The Bourne Identity' and 'The Bourne Supremacy'
Closeup of the inner ring labeling of 'The Bourne Identity'
See below Ken's impressions of the first flipper discs, along with some background and the rationale behind such a product:
The announcement of Universal's latest Blu-ray advancement, the somewhat awkwardly named "flipper disc," has been met with a fair amount of skepticism. At least by those who remember the divisive days of the Great Format War. Many a Universal HD DVD release arrived on a very similar disc – one side offering high definition content, the other playable in standard DVD drives – and garnered a poor reputation for a number of reasons. The HD DVD "Combo Discs" came with a higher price tag, suffered from inconsistent manufacturing quality, were hobbled by reports of player incompatibility, and didn't feature any disc artwork (surprisingly the trait that drew the most ire). Still, it was never clear how widespread the problems and complaints actually were. In this wild frontier of message boards and spittle-flinging blogs, it's difficult to tell if the disgruntled mob was small and loud or large and rowdy.
Universal recently sent us two of their first "flipper disc" releases to review: 'The Bourne Identity' and 'The Bourne Supremacy'. While the concept of these dual-sided discs has been receiving as much, if not more, criticism than their HD DVD counterparts, I'm happy to report there doesn't appear to be any cause for alarm. The discs themselves are sturdy, well-manufactured, and offer all of the benefits of a 2-disc BD/DVD combo in a single disc. They also have a very clear label circling their inner rings that make it easy to properly insert a disc into an appropriate player. As for play tests, I popped each disc into four different Blu-ray players (a PS3, a Sony BDP-S360, Panasonic DMP-BD80, and a Samsung BD-P4600) and any DVD player I could scrounge up in my house. I didn't encounter a single load error, playback problem, or hiccup along the way.
While purists have made it clear that they don't need or want a DVD copy of the film, it's important to understand how much market research goes into this sort of decision. Suffice to say, it's a lot. The money Universal saves on manufacturing costs will be minimal at best. The real reason "flipper discs" are being pursued is that consumers are expressing their desire for versatility and simplicity. You and I might have Blu-ray players in every room of the house, but Joe Walmart may not. The ability to use the same disc everywhere, be it a home theater, a kid's playroom, or a laptop DVD drive, is something many people find value in. On the other hand, a significant number of consumers are making it known that they don't want BD, DVD and Digital Copy discs in a cumbersome 3-disc release.
Personally? I dig discs with artwork. Moreover, I always feel like I have to handle a two-sided disc with extra TLC to avoid scratches and smudges. In a perfect world, Universal would release single-disc Flipper Editions and standard Blu-ray editions. But it all comes down to relatively minor aesthetic nitpicks that would never affect whether or not I purchased a disc, particularly one that doesn't appear to have any problems. Time will tell how functional, reliable, and popular the discs are, but I wouldn't avoid buying a release simply because its disc has two surfaces instead of one.
How do you figure.....as Ken states, people who don't own several blu-ray players (such as parents who have portable dvd players for their kids) might find this feature very handy and it could greatly help ease them into the Blu-ray format. They might be buying the DVD, but they're also buying a Blu-ray too
I agree. I love artwork. I hate spending over $20 for a movie and not getting a single bit of disc art. I jump for joy whenever I open up a brand new disc and there's art on it. Bring back booklets too!!!
Why are people so excited about disc art? You see it for 5 seconds between moving it from player to case.
The way I see it, anything that helps Blu-ray take off faster is going to be better for us. More people who are willing to buy Blu-ray stuff means more sales of all varieties of high-def equipment. Volume goes up, prices go down, competition increases, quality improves. Discs themselves might not get much cheaper (although the idea of paying $40 for a movie with a special feature disc might seem more absurd), but everything else will benefit from more sales.
It won't really affect me personally, though, because I rip everything to hard drive and never look back at the disc.
I like artwork, too, but my main concern is the protection factor. Does the Blu have the extra coating that saves a disc from being scratched??? A double-sided disc is just asking for trouble...from the moment you try to get it out of its case holder, your fingers are on a disc side that contains the movie. As far as I am concerned, a flip is a flop.
That's great that Kenneth didn't experience any problems with the flippers, but I would wait for users to report any before giving a green light on them... Knowing Universal they probably checked and re-checked the 2 discs before sending them out for review...
Ahhh Christ these damn flippers are back. I will NOT buy any of these flippers and know a LOT that will NOT either. Universal stop with these damn flippers. If some people are still not BD ready then. Burn the SD versions for them. I invested in BD that's all I want. That means NO flippers and disc art. Jeez these executives at Universal, etc. just don't get it.
I virtually never post. However, I just want to add my displeasure over these GD flippers. The studios have done enough to stiff us any which way they can. I won't buy them and advise others not to either. Geez, there are limits to how cheaply you can go even today- people!!!
If the discs hold together properly and do not suffer from durability problems, then I personally do not mind discs being flippers. I definitely understand the people who do not like them however, and I do think it makes more sense to just do BD/DVD combo packs like Disney has been doing.
Enthusiasts, or nut cases and fanatics who, even when they are proven wrong are so far out of touch with reality that they lie the fact and disbelieve the truth.
These disc are not for collectors, enthusiasts or (insert buzz word for nut case here) they are for the Walmart crowd. I doubt few, if any regular visitor to Blu-ray.com had any intention ever of buying these. Someone in the industry, and some in retail saw a need for these, did do market research, found their might be a market, and so now they exists.
Will I buy them? Probably not. Will you buy them. Definitely not, but that is not to say there are people out their who do want and will buy them.
Enthusiasts may buy Porsche, but Honda sells a whole lot more Accords.
I much prefer to get both a BD and a DVD-disc in the same package, and as mentioned, the savings Universal make on making one disc instead of two are minimal at best. I hope no one else follows Universal's lead in this case.
What if the only way to get a certain movie is via flipper? I think there would be no problem as long as Uni offers both a flipper and a straight BD. I haven't heard enough for me to think that they are going to have these separate versions. Having no choice is what bothers me.
I buy blu-ray for blu-ray and not to have a DVD on the flip side I have no use for. The 2 disc blu-ray and DVD is much better as I can give away the DVD. I'll stay away from these discs and hopefully no other companies will release them.
I've never had a physical problem with 2-sided DVDs, so I'd not expect any physical problems with Blu-Ray/DVD flippers. As long as they cost no more than regular Blu-rays, I welcome the flippers.
By not having to stock two separate versions of every new release, stores will be able to invest in a greater variety of titles. Also, perhaps Universal will be able to add a Blu-ray copy for some of the lower-selling titles that currently are availble only on DVD and which may not have a very big market among Blu-ray customers.
Flipper discs may very well cause curious DVD people to purchase Blu-ray players. As an experiment, I gave Blu-ray discs to 2 people who did not own players. One person purchased a Blu-ray player within a week. The other did not. Still, I converted 1 out of 2 people into the Blu-ray camp.
defeats the purpose though of the combo packs... where you could send the DVD version of the movie off with your child to watch in their bedroom, or take with you in the van, whereas now, wherever the DVD goes, the blu-ray goes too... so you'd have to worry about your little one getting the blu-ray damaged as well...
and if the disc becomes damaged, then you're out both versions.
"I definitely understand the people who do not like them however, and I do think it makes more sense to just do BD/DVD combo packs like Disney has been doing."
Yes, I think Disney is doing it the right way too even though I'm not a fan of DVDs and Digital Copies. With the Disney combos, if my brother wants to borrow the DVD the same night I plan to watch the BD that's no big deal. Can't do that with the flippers -_-
Anyways, no flipper discs for me thank you.
I dont like them. Have children you will understand They know not to touch the back, but I never told them not to touch the front. Granted they wont be watching Bourne anytime soon, but I have TVonDVD that used the two sided discs and they scratch very easily. No sale for me!!
Thanks for the quick test drive, much appreciated. I don't see the point of flippers, especially for catalog titles most people already own on DVD. Maybe new titles could have limited 2-disc BD & DVD Editions, with just a code for digital copies, priced a few bucks more than the BD. OK, maybe that wouldn't make anyone happy either...
With a combo pack it used to be that if your child touched and wrecked the DVD, it didnt matter because you had the Blu-ray Disc safe at home. But with a flipper, as stated above by "agoofykindasuperman", if your child wrecks the DVD, your Blu-ray is wrecked too
Not that wild about the idea of flippers. Had a few fail myself. (Looks like wwssvs did too...) I'm in the give me the blu, don't need a DVD copy or a digital copy camp, just give me the blu.
That said, the few here who don't buy them will likely not make a dent in the number purchased, and Universal will keep producing them. Kind of like Warner Brothers and their cardboard crap packaging: they finally see the light for one format, the next format comes around and there they are back with their carboard crap.
This is a BAD IDEA for the same reason it was a BAD IDEA with DVDs, way back when: you can't tell what the title of the disc is without squinting in darkness or turning on a light. The whole idea assume that this is the only disc you own, or that you only take discs out one at a time, or that you have perfect 20/20 night vision...
I think it'll add more confusion, especially for older people like my parents that use the artwork to determine how to put the disc in the player. Now they'll have to search for their glasses just to put the discs in or I guess in the worst case end up watching the DVD side instead.
Anyway, hopefully they don't sell well and it'll be a short-lived idea.
I stand by my original stance: as long as Universal has flipper discs, I will not be a Universal customer. I fear "A Serious Man" may be my last Universal title if flippers saturate Universal's BD output.
You artwork guys realize the studio is Universal, right? I don't know about you but every Universal BD I own has blue writing on the disc and the only thing resembling artwork is the logo name of the movie. I like artwork too -- but it's nice to have on the case -- I could care less about what art there might be on the disc. It was never anything impressive on Universal discs to begin with.
If these discs are as durable and defect-free as other BDs, I'm fine with it, especially if it helps promote widespread adoption of the format.
Wow, I guess I didn't fully realize how strongly people felt about this. Although I was an early BD adopter I always like the HD-DVD idea of the flipper disc for all the reasons already posted in this string. Of course, this is accompanied by the qualifier that a flipper would need to be well manufactured. Assuming that, I think flippers would be beneficial to gaining additional adopters of Blu-Ray over time for those individuals on the fence. Flippers (also assuming they're priced competitively) would provide the flexibility of both SD and HD content.
I, personally, cannot stand digital copies. Give me the optimized SD copy instead of a digital copy any day of the week.
Studio's are never going to figure this stuff out.......they are just doing this to SAVE MONEY........they don't care what we think,cause they know we will have no choice but to buy that stupid flipper disc so we can watch the movie! uuugh!
If Universal has to simply provide is with both formats, then stick them both on a high capacity flash drive so that I can take them wherever I want. Then I can delete the DVD version and be done with it.
But seriously, if this move is to drive Blu-ray sales I'll be curious to see if Sony Pictures follows suit...
Can anyone explain to me what the advantage is to having flipper discs over a BD/DVD combination package with two discs? With two discs, manufacturing cost difference is minimal, you can have one portable SD disc for travel wear/children and keep your HD copy safe at home, and BOTH discs can have artwork so that you have a surface to touch and see what the hell you are about to place in the player. I have never in my life heard anyone say they preferred a flipper disc back in the days of full screen/widescreen DVDs. With a flipper disc, one is pretty much guaranteed to put the wrong side up at some point and have to reinsert the disc correctly, and you are doubling your chances of scratches and fingerprints. If you want to simplify, a flipper disc is NOT the way to go, and if anything, needlessly complicates. I cannot for the life of me see why a flipper disc would be preferred to a two-disc package, or even considered equivalent. Flipper discs are an unnecessary evil.
I would like to Have, no no, I demand artwork for Back to the future and Jurassic Park trilogies !!! Flipper is going to hurt universal as much as HD-DVD did.You like artwork Universal?
PS. Thank god Lord of the Rings is New Line Cinema
NEWS FLASH: Universal announces they have figured out how to make BD encoded, playable disposable diapers and drink coasters. "If it helps with BD adoption and promotes the format I'm all for it...!!" says Dilbert P. Stalwart, head of regional sales for Huggies!
Basically, this is sort of like Sony announcing they will henceforth only make BD/VHS combo players...
LISTEN- UNIVERSAL, WARNERS, FOX, PARAMONT AND ANY OTHER BLU RAY DISC SUPPLY COMPANY MOVIE STUDIO. WE WANT SINGLE SIDED BLU RAY DISCS, NO FLIP DISCS, THIS IS ONE REASON I DO NOT COLLECT DVD FORMAT, I DO NOT LIKE DOUBLE SIDED DISCS, AND SECOND, EVERYONE SHOULD HAVE A DVD COPY OF ANYTHING THAT IS ALREADY BEEN RELEASED ON DVD, WE WANT SINGLE SIDED BLU RAY DISCS. PLEASE LISTEN.
Let me make this clear to Universal(and any other studio thinking about releasing their movies on "Flipper Discs".I DO NOT WANT,NEED,AND WILL NOT BUY ANY MOVIE RELEASED ON "FLIPPER DISCS"!!!!
Please keep releasing the new Blueray releases on standard Blueray discs.If you must release a DVD version with the Blueray version, then make the Blueray version available to us, on standard Blueray discs at a slightly discounted price.There is no reason that we should be forced to buy "Flipper Discs" and pay for something we do not want or need(especilly when the dvd side will likely look like hell compared to the Blueray side (which are MUCH MORE scratch and dust resistant compared to the dvd side if ANYTHING like the HD-DVD "Flipper Discs", which almost noone liked).
I too prefer artwork, but if the flippers work as well then I won't complain too much. It's possible some people have been on the fence about Blu-ray. If this increases the adoption rate then we all benefit--as long as this doesn't increase cost!
I hate flipper discs, they are so prone to being scratched!!! I like the combo packs with 2 or more discs, you can do what you want with the dvd copy and have your bluray safe at home. I will NOT be buying any title that is released on flipper disc, in fact I grabbed the Bourne boxset when amazon had it on sale just to make sure I got standard bluray discs and never ended up with the crap flipper discs. Hopefully if enough people don't buy these things they will quit producing them.
There are two sides to this story. First off, let's assume there will be no technical problems. If there are, then "Die flipper, DIE!". HD DVD combos were RANCID because of their frequent issues.
On the negative side, these discs will most likely be more expensive because dual-sided discs are more expensive to manufacture. Universal tacked a $5 surcharge on all of their combos because of the "extra value" of the discs being flippers. I'm assuming they haven't learned.
Also, the advantage many people enjoy for DVD pack-ins is that the kids can go mess with the DVD while the adults know the BD is safe and sound. Also the BD doesn't need to get packed around and possibly damaged or lost while taking the disc to a friends house or loaning it out.
The positive is that this could POSSIBLY encourage BD adoption. By Universal now packing together DVDs and BDs on I believe all their releases and also announcing they will no longer produce DVDs of titles like The Rundown, it seems as though Universal is only going to be making these flipper discs from now on and no more DVDs at all. DEATH TO DVD!
All in all, as long as the discs are sound and don't cost any more than other BDs it won't bother me too much. I'm just skeptical about both of those issues.
Boy, my blu-ray.com peers are being quite bitchy today! I for one would be VERY glad to have the option to watch all of my movies on either DVD or BluRay. Yes, there will come a time when BluRay is so commonplace that these won't be neccessary but for now, I only have one bluray player (tell me BluRay snobs...does that make me part of the "Walmart crowd"??) and like the option to take my movies to my room, my basement, my friend's houses, etc and know that I can share my love of the films as I see fit (which is what's important to me more so than the technology).
By the way, I LOVE artwork on discs too...BUT the benefit of having DVD and BluRay copies outweighs it for me...
Umm, this is totally not necessary. Here are my reasons.
1. Flipper discs don't work in slot loading dvd drives. (I have one and stuck in a double-sided cd one time, and the top part got scratched)
2. Blu-ray w/ digital copy only NEED 2 discs (not 3). If the studios wanted to push digital copy the right way, they wouldn't need to give you a third disc. They could just give you the code, and you could download the digital copy from Itunes or other video store. NO NEED for disc.
3. A seperate dvd copy makes sense for on the road. This way, your precious Blu-ray copy is safe at home.
I will be boycotting flipper discs, thought they were a horrible idea on dvds, hd-dvds, and blurays make no difference.
NO for me. I'll pass onto this one, I just hate flipper discs, their ugly, useless and I just don't see the point of having the DVD version. I'll have to be careful not to purchase a BD/DVD combo now. I much prefer having a second disc with the Digital Copy. I just hope this doesn't become a standard for all their releases.
I do not like the implication that the only valid complaint if the discs work fine is that there isno artwork. First, the label can be clear and blinking with nano sized LED lights to let the user know what side it is. It does not help me, the legally blind consumer deal with these discs in a manner that is not inconvenient. Second, there is still the issue of fingerprints and preventing scratching on two sides of a disc. I hated even DVD-18 releases that worked fine because of this and I don't think they've come up with any better way to deal with that with these. Third, I love the multidisc releases with a DVD because I own a portable DVD player. They allow me to take the DVD copy on the road. Flipper releases force me to take my BD copy on the road, and more importantly they force parents to put the BD copy in the hands of their kids to watch the DVD copy in the car, the kid's room, or wherever they want to let the kids watch the movie where they don't have a BD player. Finally, not all of the QC issues with HD DVD flippers were out of the box, the same goes for DVD-18s. It will take more than some tinkering with prerelease/new release samples to determine if bonding problems will develop down the road. I don't care if the bonding doesn't develop problems for a year or more, if that happens, it is as much a problem as if it happened out of the box for those of us that collect movies. It is entirely possible that Universal has solved the problem with these releases, but we won't know for some time and, unless they are willing to release some testing numbers to show that they have been testing the lifespan of BD flippers for a year or more, there is no way to state one way or the other how likely or unlikely lifespan issues are.
I am glad that indications are that these releases work out of the box, and I am glad folks I trust like Ken and Bill Hunt have been testing them, but I do not like the implications that the lack of artwork is the only valid complaint as long as they work and that those of us who do not like these releases are just anal compulsive collectors. The titles can work in perpetuity and the issues I enumerated above are still there and are quite valid. I am a big fan of including a DVD in BD releases. But the argument that people don't like cumbersome multidisc releases and packaging is just asinine. The sales numbers of releases of BD/DVD combo titles have done well enough for the phenomenon to spread. Very few of these multidisc releases come in packaging any thicker than they would be without the extra disc, look at the HP 6 release. Studios can fit a BD or even 2 BD release, a DVD, and a disc or download DC in a release without using bulky extra large packaging. The main convenience in flippers benefits the studios, not the consumer. the only benefit to consumers is one less disc in the package, and it comes at the cost of the other inconveniences I listed above. All of the benefits that come with a flipper disc apply to releases with separate discs, and the inclusion of the extra disc mitigates all of the issues I mentioned previously. These releases have been selling well, work well, can allow studios to reduce SKUs just as much if the decide to only release the combo version just as with the flipper releases, so why reinvent the wheel? With the exception of disc numbers and perhaps some convenience or streamlining in production for studios once they are set up to produce these discs, all of the pluses of flippers also apply to separate disc releases. Since, with the addition of a swing tray, 4 discs can be contained in a standard case, the only inconvenience to consumers with separate disc releases is keeping track of one more disc unless the addition of a DVD takes the size of a set above 4 discs per case. So, no matter how much one wants to marginalize the inconveniences and potential issues of flippers, the fact remains that all of the benefits can and already have been gained with multi disc releases without introducing these inconveniences and issues. So, it is great that they work, but that doesn't change my dislike of them one bit. I am still extremely pro BD/DVD combo release and still despise the idea of flipper discs.
From a marketing perspective, I can understand this move as it would help convince people who didn't invest in HD yet to make the move, as they can consider it to be a DVD with added Blu-ray (provided the price is right).
But from a perspective of established blu-ray fans, like myself, I see not added value in this. Worse even, I see it as a step back as I don't need the DVD-version and prefer a nice disc art.
As long as they offer both options (Blu-ray or flipper) to customers, I'm fine with it. If they force us to buy only flippers, then I would have serious issues with this move.
LynchFan, you completely miss the point. We already have all of the positives you mentioned available without any of the negatives. They are called combo releases, they already exist, they don't cost any more than releases without a DVD included and they have been selling well enough over the last couple of years that many studios are adopting them. It isn't just about the artwork, I am legally blind and while I would like all of my discs to look pretty in the cases and all of that junk,I really don't care all that much about it. But there are issues that go beyond the reliability of flippers and issues of reliability that take much longer to become apparent. While I don't like the issue of protecting two sides of a disc from fingerprints and smudges and making sure that none of my discs get flipped so I accidentally put in the DVD side (a much bigger issue for someone who can't read the print on the hub no matter how big and clear they make it), the big one for me is that I like the convenience of both formats, particularly for travel, but I would rather not take the BD copy along and risk losing it or having it damaged during my trip. Separate discs mean that if the DVD gets damaged, my BD is just fine still and the loss is mitigated. For the large number of parents who like combo releases, they have to watch their kids like hawks or not let the kids get their grubby mitts on the combo disc or risk the loss of the BD side while the kids burrow through the selection of movies in the travel bag to decide what they want to watch in the car player or in the DVD player in the other room. Again, separate disc releases mitigate the risk. Of course, separate releases do not guarantee that junior, or DAD for that matter wont damage a BD at some point, but the separate releases still have all of the same conveniences with the only inconvenience being an additional disc in the case.
Kyo28, I've seen several people mention the marketing justification for flippers in this discussion today as well as in past discussions. The issue with that argument is that that benefit already exists and has existed for some time in the form of dual format releases. I really can't think of any reason why having the two versions on two sides of one disc is going to help adoption any more than the current trend of releases with a separate BD and DVD in the same release. While I have seen some rhetoric from some BD collectors against even combo releases, I think the vast majority here are fine with dual disc releases, it is the single disc concept that is getting all of this flack.
No flipping for me. I hated it with DVD and having to have friggin "Fullscreen" versions on one side of my disc. Not doing it again with BR. Hate it. Those darn rings in the middle are always impossible to read anyway.
I for one will be buying the discs. I like the idea of having a copy for both my blu and dvd player.
I can understand everyone loving the artwork but how often do you actually look at the disc's artwork, you open up the case, you insert the dics into your player, and when done you eject it and put it back in the case. Normally you look at the artwork maybe 20 seconds tops.
I have always handled dvds or blus by the outer edge or by the center hole. No reason for fingerprints or scratches if you handle it that way. Until we see blu ray players in cars and is the norm for the future we will have fliper discs, combo packaging, etc...
These discs are useful for people who have not yet made a commitment to Blu-ray, but know that they're going to in the future. The problem is, because they know they're going to go Blu-ray at some point, they've stopped (or reduced) buying discs.
It also serves people who sometimes watch DVDs on their computer, but have BD at home.
Admittedly, this could have been solved by putting two discs in the package, but this really isn't that bad an idea, aside from the lack of graphics. And the lack of graphics will affect those most who are very sloppy about the way they keep their DVDs/BDs (not repackaging them, etc.) And having only one physical disc out there instead of two works in the company's interest to prevent people from giving away their DVD version. (You might not care about the studios' interests, but keeping them healthy and profitable in this market will insure a steady flow of deep releases and help keep prices down - so we should all want them to succeed.)
I will not buy flipper discs. Bad move Universal. First off, I'm 52 years old, my eyes are not what they used to be and I would have trouble reading the small print around the ring that tells me which side is blu and which is DVD. Second, I have a home theater and it's difficult, if not impossible to read that tiny print in near darkness. Much easier to use a disk that has a real label and artwork. Secondly, flippers are just too risky an investment for me. I can't take the chance of having a combo disk being ruined accidentally. My kids have a habit of snatching DVDs from my cabinet to play in their DVD players without my knowledge and I would go into a conniption if they manhandled a flipper containing a blu-ray film I treasured. My kids are careless with the DVD's they buy with their own money, fingerprints, scratches, spills, leaving the discs exposed when not in use, even to the point of not placing the disc back in the correct case after use. No worries about the blus I own up to this point because I've made sure I'm the only one in my house that handles them. My kids don't own blu-ray players (yet). I love my kids but I sure as hell wouldn't want them handling blu-ray/dvd flippers I've paid for and worked hard to earn. And even if flippers didn't bother me I wouldn't buy two copies of a Universal flipper just so my kids can have a copy to crap up.
Does anyone know if Universal plans to sell flippers in Great Britain? I will purchase Universal releases through Amazon UK IF they are not flippers are region free of course.
whats the price of the bd/dvd?
when you rent these bd/dvd combo's if they are for rentalpurpose , how much they are going to rise the prices?
Espeacially when the netflix announced the delayed in the new releases?
Instead of that i would really like the 2 disc editions
not keep it on life support ad nauseum. if that were the case, why not develop the quad layer instead? the laser that picks up DVD will pick that layer up as DVD, but BD lasers will focus elsewhere to pick up HD video. meanwhile, avg joe wont notice @all. 1 SKU, solved.
a little technology called hybrid SACDs used to do that .
Of all the tests that have been done, has anybody sat down and watched an entire disc? I gave up with Universal and their crappy DVD-18 discs. Every single title glitched at least once. The problem is you never knew where or when it would happen. The fact that these load and don't "appear" to present problems is not good enough I'm afraid.
Spymaster you are dead right, I recently had two discs from a TV season that I have had for at least 5, maybe 6 years that has worked fine since I first got it start glitching out of the blue. I have treated all of my DVD-18 titles like fine china since discovering how problematic they were, but it didn't stop bonding problems from popping up years after release, so how long will it take to state conclusively that Universal flippers will not ever suffer any problems like this?
I say yet again, the only real advantages to flippers are for the studios, and, since Uni is the studio behind this, I would hazard that even the advantages they get from this would not be advantages for any other studio unless that studio also participated in the development of the flipper production system. I would guess that the process involves patents and that any studio not owning a piece of those patents would have to pay for the rights to join the flipper crowd as well as to modify their production lines to produce the discs. With dual disc releases, the production capacity is there and the only change required is at the packaging stage. Seems a much better route to me, unless you are Universal.
I like artwork as well, but everyone who jumps to the "I bought the blu I dont need the DVD!!!!" argument, needs to calm down. Some people, have friends who dont have bluray, and it may become handy to not own 2 versions of a movie when you want it to be played in a non-bluray environment...
I am concerned about the "review" given. Having 2 discs is FAR from a large enough sample to say "I'm happy to report there doesn't appear to be any cause for alarm."
"The real reason "flipper discs" are being pursued is that consumers are expressing their desire for versatility and simplicity." This is an out and out lie. A dvd packaged in with a blu-ray is FAR more versatile and simple. I don't have to guess which side to face up. I can have one mobile dvd copy and one Blu-ray copy that stays safe. If one gets damaged I still have some form of the movie.
This whole review sounds like Universal told Ken to tell people how much they should love flippers, or else. It comes across as propaganda and not an honest review.
I hope flippers fail. They serve absolutely no purpose but to cut down on the publisher's costs, which will never be passed onto me, so I don't care.
I hope everyone boycotts these. They should make the trilogy just as much (penny for freakin penny) as the 3 individual releases and see which one sells more. And why would the trilogy sell more? Oh that's right, because it's not tainted with some DVD garbage.
And even if people ARE going to use the DVD side for uses in other rooms, how many people will actually check and make sure it's on the right side? I can see ALOT of people putting this in a DVD player - on the blu-ray side, seeing an error message and then putting it away for good.
These discs are garbage and I will never purchase a single one, Kenneth Brown has steadily declined IMO and his giving an sort of credence to this idiotic idea only furthers that. "Tons of market research"? Who cares? The idiots that answer the call research questions don't really know what they're answering anyway.
I will not purchase a single flipper disc and I encourage everyone to boycott them as well, and I have stopped giving Kenneth Brown any sort of credibility.
Yep, as with others I will NEVER buy a flipper. That's easy logic -- I'll just Netflix any of those I want to see.
Someone here said it wouldn't matter what us few would do and they are *completely* wrong -- the consumer drives this marketplace, especially now, and if you don't buy them they'll stop making them. Trust me, this is one time when we can kill something before it gets off the ground. But you have to be strong -- if a title comes out you really really want, just rent and don't buy and in less than a year flippers will be one of those things that were just an asterisk on the technology highway.
This was a joke when they did it with widescreen/fullscreen DVDs. When they did it with TV series boxsets. When they did it with HD DVD/DVD. And it is still a joke with BD/DVD. I may buy a few of my must haves, but I blind buy a lot of titles. I will not blind buy a flipper. Ever.
Count me in as a member of the army that will have nothing to do with Flippers!! I like the idea of having a separate DVD option, as it comes in handy when playing movies for the kids in the car. But I do not, repeat, do not want any flippers!! Just give me both versions when I buy the movie. I would even pay more for the option of having two discs.
I hope this idea of flippers goes down in flames!!
I know that no one will see this since I'm so far down on the comment pages. But still... wanted to voice my opinion. With kids and only 1 BD player in the house, I love the Combo packs for the Disney movies that the kids like to watch wherever and whenever. What I prefer to do is remove the supplied DVD and keep it near the playroom tv/dvd player. The kids can dirty those up all they want. The "flipper" would force me to allow my kids to handle the discs and have to go back and forth through the whole house to get a movie from down in the "movie" room and take it upstairs to playroom. Just a bad concept all around. Keep the combo disc format or just keep it BD only!
I, too, would like to see artwork on my Blus. But if I HAVE to buy a flipper (no other choice to get the BLU), I will copy/rip the DVD side to a backup disc for the kiddies/non-Blu players. Heck I might even get creative and put my own DVD label artwork on the flipper covering the DVD side after I back it up. YMMV.
blindcat87, your points are absolutely valid and being a parent myself I relate and definitely enjoy the combo packs very much. I guess what I was thinking of is that, I would love if ALL my BluRays also came with a DVD and I assumed that if Universal was making this the standard for their releases that it would mean more options for what films I can watch and where I can watch them. I have no special love for the flipper disk, it's just that in this weird limbo period before BluRay becomes "the norm", I wish I had DVD and BD version of everything and only a handful of titles come in the combo pack. But yes, by all means, given the option between a combo pack or a flipper, I'll take a combo pack all day long!
Part of the enjoyment of opening a new blu-ray is to see what the discs look like.These are blank so say no more.I do think its a good idea to have a dvd though as theyll be alot of people who would make use of the dvd maybe on there computer or on a portable dvd player.Maybe people will have kids who have dvd in there bedroom.Saying that though i wouldnt want to pay any extra for it.
I find it rather interesting that they've brought these out now. Surely the market research into what consumers wanted was done at the outset before they started releasing either HD-DVD or Blu-Ray!! This smacks me of being a reaction to the fact that Blu-Ray adoption hasn't snowballed as fast as these companies were hoping, so they're trying to come up with other inventive ways of offering other content to reign people in. I must admit - I do like the fact that some Blu-Rays these days have digital copies that I can transfer to my PMP and carry with me when travelling etc. Mind you, that's assuming the digital copy is actually accessible!!! Half the time my Region Free US imported discs (i'm in the UK by the way) don't give me access to the Digital Copy as I'm not a 'resident of the USA'.
Honestly, why make the Blu-Ray region free and then lock the flippin' Digital Copy!
My personal advice to the studios would be to either.....
(a). Show confidence in the format and leave Blu-Rays to be Blu-rays, and stop pushing DVD and Digital Copy onto enthusiasts who are only interested in the HD component.
(b). Include a 2nd disc in the Blu-Ray package with a Digital Copy that isn't territory-specific on and leave it at that.
or (c). Stop releasing the DVD format altogether and release a single 3-disc package for all titles which include Blu-Ray, DVD and Digital copy. We're then all "All-for-one and One-for-all".
..... Whichever one it is I really don't care, just please don't go back and repeat mistakes of the past and go for these cruddy flipper discs from now on!
I hope this site either has a list or mentions on the discs info it is one of these. I also have no interest. If they want to release a movie only with this option I won't buy the movie. While there should be no issue with finger prints seeing as people should be only touching the sides, I still see this as some embarassing thing down the road when DVD is dead and you got some dead weight attched to your Blu-ray and then years later they are releasing a new version that will just make you mad.
Like others have stated, I think the double sided thing is a bad idea too. The combo packs are better, if we must choose. If you want to loan the DVD out to someone, now you have to give them your blu-ray copy too! Makes no sense to me. Seems like more of an incovenience than anything else. This could be a ploy to get consumers to buy more copies of the same movie when these start getting damaged and lost...
You know somehow I have doubts the discs Ken was given are from the same run or batch that will be out at retail. I could definitely envision a scenario where Uni delivers known working discs to media outlets just to quell concern., and then issues pop up anyway with the production run.
I'll be skipping these releases or hoping that a region-free import will be available with artwork. They are too susceptible to damage and difficult to discern which side is which. I don't buy these discs because I desire a low resolution alternative. Very bad idea.
- Artwork not only looks good, it also protects the foil side of the disc.
- Blu ray players are so cheap why bother
- It adds extra cost
- It makes the disc more easily susceptible to damage, way way less durable
Actually, I can think at least one good reason for a flipper: I used to be able to loan movies to my parents, who do not own a Blu-Ray player, and have no plans to; a flipper would solve this problem... Not sure how much money I'd be willing to fork just for this, though... On the longer run, the pluses of being able to market two formats in one deliverable might actually be very attractive to studios such as Universal... As for the artwork being so attractive as to be the main reason why people would oppose flippers, hmmmm...
Why are people so worried about the cost. They are going to be cheaper than most catalog release per the ads posted in the hot deals section of the forum. I for one have never had a problem with the quality of any flipper that I have ever owned. Yes they are more susseptible to scratches and finger prints sbut if you handle them correctly then there is no reason there should ever be a problem. And if you can read there is no reason to miss the artwork on the disc.
yatim99, but the current trend of dual releases that include a BD and a DVD already solved that problem and don't require you to give up your BD while the parents, siblings, friends, etc have the DVD. So, flippers solve a problem that has already been solved and in an inferior way to the other options.
madlost1, but no matter how paranoid you are about taking care, stuff happens, some people have kids or friends that handle their movies about as carefully as kids, and some people like me can't read the labelling. So, yes those issues are a big deal to some. Again, including separate discs has all of the advantages a flipper disc offers with the exception of consolidating to a single disc, and none of the disadvantages. Flippers are just a solution without a problem.
Also, to those who think that preventing loaning/giving away of the DVD copy is part of the motivation, I don't think that really has any bearing. Whether through flippers or dual disc releases as in the new dual releases of The Rundown, The Last Starfighter, and others, the DVD only version has been discontinued. The plan seems to be to move to single SKUs. I seriously doubt that loaning or giving away of DVDs is something they care about. Universal has always been obsessed about minimizing SKUs and consolidating releases. I think that the flippers are a way for them to maximize this and since they came up with the process, they likely are hoping to get other studios to pay them for the rights to use the process.
The move to dual releases by other studios is part of planned obsolescence for DVD. First you move to BD/DVD releases, then you discontinue the DVD only releases, then you phase out the DVDs entirely when consumer adoption hits an appropriate level. In addition to their SKU consolidation and extra income, I think Uni sees the potential for keeping the DVD side of the disc in the mix longer with flipper discs. If they get enough studios to jump aboard, why phase out the DVD side when the mastering/replication/distribution chain is already set up for flipper disc production? So, they turn a format that is losing ground into something more of a money maker and hang on to their share of DVD revenues a bit longer. Even with loaning and giving away of DVDs, consolidating releases to a single release whether dual disc or flipper will lower costs for the studio and could increase flagging DVD sales and BD sales as well since each movie sale is one for DVD and one for BD. Consolidation is really win/win for the studios and both the outgoing and incoming formats, but flippers have all of the negatives discussed previously and may force studios that wish to go that route to hand over more of the income to Uni and any other studio involved in developing the BD/DVD combo disc process.. So, the advantages in this pretty much all lie with Universal and the disadvantages lie with the consumer and to any studio that would have to pay Universal if they wanted to go the flipper route.
FU Universal. I'm not buying this trash. The only, and I mean ONLY reason to do this is to try to create a greater apparent value with your movies, and therefore charge a premium for them. I'm not buying a single one. Sit on it and spin bitches!
I hate flipper discs and prefer artwork much more but I like the versatility. Not everyone I know has gone hi-def yet so if I want to take it somewhere else to watch outside of my home (or the few friends of mine that have gone hi-def) I won't have a problem. Plus for people who do plan on adopting blu-ray soon, they can have this for the time being and won't have to re-buy anything down the road. If anything it can prevent double dipping in the future. Well, at least until they release the super-duper extended director's cut. Universal could learn a thing or two from Disney.
I'll never, ever, buy any sort of flipper disc. The combo packs with blu-ray and a seperate dvd such as Disney do seem like a good value proposition to those that would use both versions (ie, those with kids), and as futureproofing for those that have yet to upgrade to blu-ray. Personally, as someone who has already upgraded, I would prefer to also have the option of a slightly cheaper, blu-ray only release.
I notice a lot of people saying they like the combo packs, as they can keep the blu-ray and give away the dvd - I imagine this is exactly what Universal are trying to put a stop too.
The only thing I'm going to say about flippers is this: If they are going to make them to help in the transition, then ALL releases now and in the near future need to be flipper discs and they need to stop making regular DVD's period. If the industry was truly interested in making the switch to blu-ray, force it by not making standard DVD's anymore. That way, if you are buying a movie and you want a DVD, you are getting the blu-ray too, whether you like it or not. I think this would accelerate the switch.
theres also another reason not to have combo discs.some people resell there bds back to stores,the stores sell them back as used bds,but they have to be in perfect ,no scratches.the dvd will scratch so the store won't rebuy them back.
i don't agree with kens view.i know he's doing his job.review combo discs. i think the bean counters had more to do with the whole idea of combo discs more then anything.i would avold buying these discs. univeral is such a stupid company. just when blu-ray discs are dropping in price,they do a dumb thing like this.
come on we all know ken it doesn't cost much to make dvds these days. there not trying to save money,there just trying rip people off once again.i hope other studios don't follow suit.
blindcat87! it doesn't matter ,are you reading these posts! theres very few posts that like combo discs.someone said even with all the people here not wanting flippers won't make a dent,thats not true! this is just one site. theres thosands of sites out there and i bet theres a lot of them bitching about the same thing. if all the people at all the site don't buy flippers,univeral will have to stop making them and btw no sale here.
While maybe personally I would not like a "flipper disc", I do see some ways in which this would come in handy. For instance, I have one blu-ray player in my house and it is set up with the HDTV and Bose Sound System; this is also where my parents generally watch TV, so if that area is taken up I can still watch a movie in another room.
Also, shouldn't it be obviously discernible which side is BD and which is DVD? Unless I'm straight up colorblind, I seem to recall all of my BDs having a bluish tint on the back of the disc. So, then, the DVD should have the standard silver tint on its side. Right?
I do like artwork, so I would probably prefer a two-disc BD/DVD combo if they intend to do this, but I do see where the flipper discs can be helpful in the transition.
just want to let everyone know that there already was a recall on the ultimatum. We had to pull them from store shelves and send them back. I hope that is not a sign of things to come, but get the feeling it is.
tvine2000, I hope you are right. I really hope that this is going to turn out to be a short lived experiment that Uni will give up. My personal plans are to buy as many of the releases from Universal that contain a BD and DVD as I can, titles that I am interested in anyway while avoiding the flippers completely. I know some are angry and talking about boycotting Universal, but IMO the only way Uni is going to get the message that it is the flippers that are so objectionable is if it is those that people avoid. If enough people avoid all Uni titles, it might make a bllip on their radar, but even if it is a major blip, their bean counters can come up with all kinds of excuses for the drop, while if their sales numbers continue to grow at the same pace they have been with the sole exception of flipper releases, it would be kind of hard for even the most creative thinkers in the sales and marketing departments to come up with an excuse for that beyond consumer dislike of the concept.
I personally hate the idea of the flippers. I like Disney's approach of the combo-packs. However, Universal is different than Disney. Universal doesn't WANT us to own two copies of the same film, one on Blu, one on DVD -- with the flipper, you are essentially only getting one copy. You can give the disc away. You can't watch the Blu in one room and the DVD in another room. Like it or not, this is what they want because they are a company trying to make money. If the "extra" DVD disc from a combo-pack is given away, then that is one less sale that the studio could have had. If you want to watch the Blu in one room and the DVD in another, they WANT you to buy two copies of the film. I applaud Disney for not taking this approach, but I understand why Universal has chosen to go with the flipper disc. As others have mentioned, I think it will, in the long run, promote the growth of Blu-ray, because it is both backwards- and forwards-compatible, for those who have already upgraded to Blu-ray and still have/use DVD players, and for those who have not yet upgraded to Blu-ray, but one day will.
what we need is people that review at this site to do just that but also have the balls to tell it like is. the review by ken is fine but then again ken by the comitts you can see in the real world people don't want flippers and want to be able to choose. i know your doing your job but lets not be so wishy washy and if you really don't like flippers then say that. i don't care whats good for universral all i care about is what fellow blu-rayers want and what i want. you can take both sides if you like,but the fact is univeral is in a world of there own.they don't listen to consumers and they don't care.when this combo thing came to light last year i know here and other site that let univeral know how they felt.did they listen...no!the bottom line is when you take something away from people and replace it with something they don't you get 141 commits and counting and most don't want what there offering duh!
I dont have kids and even I can safely say...no matter what releases on the flipper discs i will not purchase. All negative points I have read are valid. I see no converting people that have only dvds buying a blu ray player. They have what they need right there. How you convert people is to stop making dvds!plain and simple
Guess I'm in the extreme minority here, but I have no problem with flippers whatsoever. We have 7 HDTVs in my home, but only 2 Blu-Ray players. The other 5 rooms only have standard (yet upconverting) DVD players. The ability to watch a movie in ANY room, with a single disc is fine by me. (Plus we can watch on trips using our portable DVD players, and the 1 in our minivan). I don't really give a flying f about artwork on the disc itself.
Don't have a problem with flippers. Was wondering if and when they'd come out. It would increase the likely hood of consumers buying BD. if they see the dvd side is scratched and the BD side isn't. My concern is the middle hole. dvd's don't have a merged layer system like Blu Ray's do. (one of the reasons HDDVD sucked. looked and felt like a dvd, and cracked just the same) Hopefully the same attention to quality to Dual Discs is paid here. And I prefer dualdiscs when I can get them. They are fun.
These are NOT... repeat.. NOT called "flipper" discs. They are COMBO discs. A combination of a DVD on one side and a Blu-ray on the other side. COMBO!
A FLIPPER disc is one that has the same format on each side and the movie (or other content) is spread over both sides. The content is different on each side. In other words, you have to FLIP the disc over to continue viewing the content.
It is exceedingly inaccurate to call these Jason Bourne releases "flipper" discs. You do NOT have to flip the disc over to continue viewing the content you were watching on the first side.
COMBO discs are OK with me. But I absolutely abhor FLIPPER discs. Fortunately, I'm not aware of any true flipper discs in the Blu-ray format.
I like the versatility. I have one blu ray player and two dvd players including the one for my car. None of my immediate family own a blu ray player. This way I can play it where I want and lend the movie to my family, whereas before I couldn't. As long as they work and high quality is kept, I'm all for the flippers.
Is it a breath mint or a candy mint? Only your hairdresser knows for sure. Vinyl records had two sides and I didn't care....BUT DVDs and Laserdiscs with two sides, I never liked. I'll avoid these filpper Blu-ray discs. It ain't right!
Why don't we make this simpler for Universal, Disney and other studios for that matter. Just drop the DVDS!!! In a very awkward transition from DVD to Blu-ray the studios are making few happy with trying to include those stupid (and privacy invading) DVD/computer discs in with the Blu-ray. Studios, please just offer us the best quality Blu-rays you can on a single disc. You might even think of including an insert card with artwork and menu info. You know like the "old days". Think quality like Blu-ray is supposed to represent!
MEB, we know they're not technically FLIPPER DISCS, but, you know what we mean. The fact that there's two sides with the little O-RING being the only area with a label reading, "THIS SIDE BLU-RAY, FLIP FOR STANDARD DVD" is all we mean.
Watch how many people load their disc in the wrong way. WATCH! WATCH! W A T C H !!!
And that's just one problem. A problem we people who bought a Bluray player and an HDTV shouldnt be dealing with!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Why would we even consider PLAYING a DVD?!!! The only reason we've established would be because perhaps we have children or another room with a DVD PLAYER.
Ok, WELL WHAT GOOD IS HAVING ANOTHER ROOM WITH A DVD PLAYER IF THE DVD MOVIE THE KIDS WANT TO WATCH IS CONNECTED TO AND ON THE BACK OF OUR BLURAY DISC????!!!!!
Like someone else said in one of these comments I hope we can have a thread to point out the flippers. It bothers me that people aren't going to be able to know they have a flipper until they open the case.
But i've made three comments on this and once again I also will not knowingly buy a flipper.
Holy Unexpected Batman! There's something different out there and people are whining their asses off about it.
"I'll never use the stupid DVD - who cares if there are many families out there that might have a DVD player in their car or in their kids' rooms, and can't afford to buy multiple copies of everything. Screw them!"
"I like the artwork - it's what I look at for 5 seconds when I take the disc out and put it in the player - what will I do without that!?"
Thank God you whiney losers who will be "voting with your wallets" make up such a small percentage of the consumer population.
While I'm not crazy about "flipper" disks - I'll miss the artwork - I do like the idea of having both the blu-ray and dvd versions available in one package. That's especially true for kiddie flicks. From my kids' perspective, they want to be able to bring their movies with them on long car trips - even if that means choosing dvd over blu-ray. (Sorry kids, I just can't do it.)
Flippers are annoying and look stupid. I love to get multi disk BDs and I love the artwork on the discs. Ya some people don't have BD in every room in their house, but most BDs come with a digital copy now, so just put it on iTunse and sync it to your iPod, everyone's got an iPod.
Going back to DVD is a bad idea, DVD quality is an eyesore compared to Blu-ray.
Interesting that some folks here think that those of us who won't buy a combo disc are "whiners" -- to me it's the folks who WANT a combo disc that are the real whiners.
I wonder if those folks go out of their way to find combo DVDs with widescreen on one side and fullscreen on the other. After all, that "preserves their options" as well -- you might want to play your movie on a fullscreen TV and hate those black bars, right? For that matter, maybe Uni should put such a disc in with the BD/DVD flipper -- that way we've kept ALL the options open (for those folks who seek out fullscreen movies -- don't tell me there aren't a lot, because I see them in my supermarket and the few times I visit Wallyworld).
Hmmmm, perhaps Uni should go a step further -- there are still folks out there with VHS and Beta machines -- they could include tapes for both and have us pay for ALL of this. Yep, I can see that as a possibility.
All seriousness aside, such a combo disc is really brain dead. We ALL know that blu-ray will phase out DVD at some point. That's a given, right? We just don't know when. So why in heaven's name does anyone want something like this around? Are you really sad now that you don't have an eight-track version of The White Album? (Actually, it's much worse than that, since you can't possibly mistakenly put your old eight-tracks into your CD player. But at some point in the near future you certainly can mistakenly put the wrong side of one of these discs in and be watching an inferior picture -- that's just plain stupid).
Another thing I think is funny is the justification of "kids watching the movie in another room". Why, then are so many of the upcoming combo disc releases R rated movies then? Three bourne movies, wasn't the Eminem movie another one? Fast and the Furious, another?
solott55, resorting to insulting everyone that disagrees with you. What class. At least some of us arguing against these releases have enumerated very specific complaints about the dual sided discs. As I stated previously, including a separate DVD as Uni and others have on other releases gives all of the advantages the 2-sided single disc does without introducing the disadvantages.
Your statement is invalid anyway as this has absolutely nothing to do with fear or discomfort of something new. In case you missed it, there were these things called DVD-18s and HD DVD combo discs before these came out. It isn't fear of the new, it is dislike of the already tried and failed. If you want to participate in the debate, at least try to come up with some counterarguments using fact and logic instead of just hurling random insults. I know a lot of the anti-combo crowd are showing a lot of emotion, but at least there have been some points against made. All of the pro arguments so far amount to telling us to stop complaining or providing pluses that apply to separate disc releases as well. The only benefits to combos given so far that do not apply to a 2 disc solution only benefit Universal themselves and not the consumer or the format.
How do you know who disagrees with me? Personally I have no need for a combo-disc, nor do I think it's the best way to promote the technology. At the same time, these companies don't make decisions like this arbitrarily - if the market demands it, who am I to demand that they serve my whims. The concerns of people here vowing to NEVER buy a combo-disc are petty - if the artwork on a disc affects your life, well, you don't have much of one to speak of.
My comment has to do with whining about nothing - especially considering the recent events in Haiti - watching, collecting and talking about blu-rays is a fine little hobby - some people here are just far too decadent about it.
DVDdesign, the majority of the initial BD/DVD releases were family titles. The success of those led studios to expand to other titles. While family fare is probably the most in need of the addition of a DVD, the fact is that a lot of us grownups have portable DVD players, laptops, DVD players in the other room and friends that we have movie nights with that don't have a BD player yet. Personally, at this point all of my friends and family that I watch movies with have a BD player now, but I have a portable DVD player and a couple of DVD players in rooms that don't have a BD player, so I appreciate the expansion of the 2 disc scheme. But people generally point to the kids as a reason because that is pretty much where the concept started and is an obvious example since even folks with no kids can get a clear picture of how hard kids can be on discs and of how important it is for parents to have the ability to keep the kids entertained on the road and in places other than the home theater room.
solott55, I would strongly disagree that the arguments given against the combos are all petty. Unimportant in the grand scheme of things, certainly, but not petty within the framework of the hobby. Artwork is only a minor issue for a lot of us who don't like the combos and want to see them fail. While it is nice that the discs seem to be working initially, DVD-18 discs have been known to fail randomly even years later as the bonding grows older. Perhaps this will not be the case with BD combos, but nobody will know for sure for years to come. With a two disc solution, if one wishes to take a movie on a trip, they can leave their BD copy at home and not risk having it damaged, lost or stolen, the combo solution requires one to take the BD along or loan it out along with the DVD copy. Not a major concern for some, but big to others.
As a visually impaired collector of movies, I dislike dual sided discs. There are much more serious and important concerns in life caused by my blindness, but it doesn't change the fact that having to deal with making sure I have the right side of the disc down and protecting two sides of a disc adds a small layer of inconvenience that I would prefer to do without.
I absolutely think consumers should tell producers of any and all products what they want and don't want. I feel that boycotting the entire studio over something like this is going way overboard, but vocal consumer response is sometimes the only way to get one's opinions heard. It might have an effect, it might not. I agree that flippers are not the end of the world, but I disagree that the arguments against are all petty and unimportant within the arena of collecting and owning movies on disc.
I agree that all of this is of no significance in the grand scheme of things. Beyond tragic world events, I have plenty in my own life and those of my friends and family that is of actual importance. To me issues around hobbies are pretty much the bottom of the scale, but this is a forum for the discussion of a hobby and, while some people probably really do put too much focus on these things in their daily lives, I think most find Haiti and other world tragedies along with local and individual matters of importance ahead of this, but when they are discussing an issue on a board on a topic appropriate to the subject of that forum, they discuss that topic with the passion of a fan of that topic. I don't think most here would put these issues ahead of more important things in life and the world, at least I hope not, but if one lets bad events in life and the world stop one from enjoying, discussing and debating enjoyable issues of less importance, then one has let those figurative bastards, the ones you are supposed to not let get you down, win.
I think you're still sort of over-generalizing my comments - I didn't say that ALL of the arguments against combos are petty - I have valid ones myself. I didn't say I was thrilled over the idea, but it seems like both of us agree that it's not quite something to be up in arms about. I think hardcore collectors (I'm not quite there yet) need to realize that they are atypical consumers - there are people here that wouldn't think twice about "double-dipping" on different versions of the same blu-ray, let alone two different formats. There are many, many consumers out there who have legitimate reasons to want both a blu and a DVD combo, but can't afford to buy both. We're to deny them that so that we can have artwork, or even so the small percentage of people with visual impairments don't have to look more carefully at it? It's not the way the world works, nor should it be, and anyone that wants to fight it is pretty much whining (or pissing in the wind at the very least).
Our difference of opinion aside, I am curious to know how HD has affected your TV/Movie watching experience as someone with a visual impairment. I know a couple of people with visual impairments who just don't think they'd be able to take advantage of the HD difference, but I would think that even though they might not get quite the benefit as someone with normal vision (in my case with the help of very strong lenses), that it would still offer a noticeable improvement. I'm assuming that't the case for you, or you wouldn't be here...(?)
I guess according to Universal, there is no reason to have a DVD player in any other room in the house (or in the car) because by making one disc contain a DVD on one side and a Blu-ray on the other side, they're telling us they "Don't want one movie to be in two places at the same time".
solott55, you are right. I basically read your initial comment as a blanket statement towards all debating on the side aginst the combo disc releses.
I have RP, a degenerative retinal disease combined with ocular albinism, a condition which means I have little pigment in the retinas, pale blue irises that don't block light as much as they should when constricted and corneas that are extra sensitive to UV light. I started losing vision in my early college years, have been unable to read standard text since about 1999 or so, regained some sight after having cataracts caused by the effects of sun exposure on my corneas during my youth when I didn't know I had the albinism and didn't wear sunglasses when I should have, but now am at a stage where on bad days I am pretty much at hazy light perception and on good days I can see just enough detail on a decent sized display to not need too much descriptive help if I don't know what is going on. I've been into home theater seriously since around 1995-6 and my experiences have evolved with the changes in my vision. Right now, I actually prefer to watch movies for the first time with friends or family that have flat displays. Even with greater distance and height, I can see more on their displays than on my older 1080i Hitachi RPTV. The lesser contrast and brightness of an RPTV really work against me. I dream of a Panny V10 plasma or a Samsung sidelit LED LCD, but that isn't in the budget anytime soon and sometimes I toy with the idea of just getting a smal token LCD display and focusing entirely on maxing out audio quality since I know the vision is only going to get worse unless one of the therapies currently in trials pans out for me in the future. Even if I were totally blind now, I think I would still be as enthusiastic about collecting BD. I enjoy the lossless audio and the only real ffrustration for me is that sometimes navigating settings for my player and movies can be a pain or even may require sighted assistance in worst cases. But I love film. I actually completed a year of film school in pursuit of another undergrad degree as a blind student and would have finished had injuries from a car accident not caused me to withdraw. I still buy any movie I am interested in owning with the exception of subtitled films. It is a bummer since I am a big Kurosawa fan, anime fan, and general foriegn film fan, but it is too frustrating to own them since I have trouble getting someone to read subs for me except in rare instances where I can find someone who likes a particular film enough to sit through it. I would recommend any blind or visually impaired person interested in film go with BD if they can. To me, the audio alone is worth it, and if you have some vision there is a very good chance that HD will allow you to see just a little more of what is going on. I don't get as much of a boost out of the extra detail as a fully sighted person, but on a good day I can see enough more to be glad of the HD video, on a bad day I don't even bother to try to watch and sometimes don't even bother to turn on the display, but I still enjoy the surround experience and the fun of a good mix in lossless audio.
I won't by buying flippers. I hated them on DVD and I certainly won't advocate their existence in Blu-ray. It's simpler (and probably cheaper) to just include a free DVD in the case if you want to make sure people can play them in their cars or whatever.
If it came down to it, I would much rather have the DVD version on a seperate disc rather than some infernal "flipper" disc. Yes, I enjoy the artwork on Blu-rays and I think that having small print around the center cheapens the look of the product. I really only enjoy movies with both DVD and Blu-ray formats in the same packaging when it's an animated film. That way if my son wants to watch "Cars", and I don't really want to, I can pop it into his portable DVD player and he can watch it there, while I watch something different on Blu-ray. Or if we bring movies on a trip, then it's also nice to have that DVD for the portable. In short, seperate discs please!
Thanks for your very interesting response - glad to hear you're able to benefit from this great medium as well - I hadn't thought of how sweet the lossless audio would be to someone who is more attuned to that aspect of a movie.
Thanks again - sorry if we got off on the wrong foot!
solott55, no problem. It can be hard to interpret tone and intent on internet postings. I always know exactly what I mean to get across, but it doesn't always come across that way to other forum members and no matter how carefully I try to read posts it doesn't take much to misread. Even the most clearly worded statement can be taken wrong if the reader assigns the wrong tone in their head or misses a single word. It gets even harder when the discussion on a thread or story gets as ummm... lively as this one.
I DEFINITELY want the DVD version along with the Blu-Ray version, and NOT digital copies. Or, at the very least, include both the Digital Copy and SD-DVD on the same disc. I often watch movies with friends at their houses, and they don't have Blu-Ray players. It's terrible to either want to watch a movie and just being unable to since I only have the BD version, or having to rent the SD-DVD version despite having dropped $30 on the BD.
Oh my god, here we go again! Those geniuses at Universal are gonna wreck everything and they don't really support the format anyway (where's my Vertigo? Whine, Whine)
Really, I almost puked when I read this. I truly hope that everyone who says they will boycott these REALLY WILL boycott these. I am and I'm sticking to it. (even if it's Vertigo!) Boycott these stupid things and we can cast a vote against this stupidity. Otherwise, you just added to the problem and gave the suits another reason to treat us badly. (us being adopters of new formats. I've been around since VHS and Beta)
When I first heard about the BD/DVD combo discs, I thought it was an extra waste but many had a good point for them: Kids. The kids had their own disc and parents had their blu. Okay, I can understand and deal with that. I gave away my extra dvds to a kid who should really be reading.)
But with these flippers, you're just making it a mess for everyone. It's all on one disc. Lovely! I love the picture on blu and only go back to DVD if it's the only game in town (DVD ain't bad it's just not Blu. Ah.....Blu)
And this flipper nonsense is a step backward. Buy a BD player for goodness sake. The players have come down so what's the problem? They can play on a regular tv so what's the problem? And if price is a problem, just stick with DVD till you go blu. Don't make me compromise for you when I'm taking the plunge. Join the program or not but don't force me to go backward cause you are. That's just ridiculous. I don't mean to sound cruel but that's the way things are sometimes. We're on the bandwagon but now have to adapt for a backward format? I like having a nice label on the disc. I can't even believe this is an issue. "Um, sir, do you really want your disc labeled?" "Ah, no, just let me guess what it is or I'll just grab my microscope and try and find it" The studios are getting cheap enough with the labeling already anyway. Don't make it worse. (Hey, Paramount, like I have the Trek episodes pretty much memorized by now, so for future releases don't even include cover art. Just put it in a brown paper bag. slap a title on it and I'll feel like I'm buying Porn!")
I am clearly staying away from this abomination. I only hope that it's just Universal that's considering this. If Warner thinks it viable, I'm gonna cry. (Remember guys, you said Ben Hur would be out this year! please please, Hugs and Kisses, Whine Whine)
Seriously, Folks. This is one bad idea. If you see it, cross yourself and run in the other direction.
<i> If the "extra" DVD disc from a combo-pack is given away, then that is one less sale that the studio could have had.</i>
Do you really believe that? I don't know anybody who has ever bought 2 copies of a movie so they could watch it in 2 different parts of the house, not even ones with kids. That hypothetical sale is a mirage, and for all practical purposes never happens. The Universal exec who told their board that combo discs would measurably increase sales in these situations ought to be shot for daydreaming.
I wull not buy these flippers. This is blu-ray not dvd. If you can't afford to buy a player then don't buy a disc, plan ans simple. Universal you lost a customer, and I'm sure alot of others feel the same way.
I once had a friend who said his HD disc (blu ray or HD-DVD i'm not sure) was crap. I checked, and he was using the DVD side of this 'flipper' disc. I didn't even know they existed until that. This only confuses average consumers even more.
So will they cost the same as a DVD? If not then Joe Walmart is not going to buy these. I thought the whole point of blu-ray was to have one disc with everything on it. If we are going to continue down the road of 2, 3 and 4 disc packaging and now flip disc, I just assume we get to the point I can download the movie in blu-ray quality audio and video and I'll save space in my home....
the flipper thing is stupid. why would you want a dvd copy of the movie when you can have bluray plus i hate the idea of a digital copy too. its a waste. i was in toys r us the other day and they sell just digital copies of a movie if thats what you want.
I hate the idea of Universal shoving their schemes in the consumer's throat. A BD/DVD combo pack is great, but the flipper discs can disappear before making their appearance for all I care. On the same note, Universal's plan did a lot for the promotion of HD DED, eh? Give me a break and give some of those Uni marketing execs a new job.
I think it's interesting that BD sites are promoting flipper discs when it's very clear that consumers do not want them. Also, we do not know the long term affect to the reliability of the discs with this crazy configuration. The best combo is BD50/DVD/Digital copy and it should become the standard until studios stop supporting DVD.
Really, in all those days of DVD when that was the going joke, studios went from not having any inserts, to putting in inserts of advertisements of other DVDs from that studio or now instructions on how to use the digital copies. And with BD, we get inserts on how to use features like Universal's U-Control.
Sigh..........enough said. I know I bought into blu-ray for best pq and aq, NOT for another copy as dvd, digital copy, etc. If the purpose of blu-ray was to phase out dvd the studios sure don't act like they want to replace dvd as they keep finding ways to sneak them into our blu-ray packaging.
The reason they are doing this is to get people to switch to blu-ray. After people buy the DVD which has the blu-ray some will eventually buy a blu-ray player. Though, like everyone else, I would rather it be done with seperate discs. Get rid of the digital copy disc to save on packaging and discs.
Universal Needs to stop production on these hideous disks. I hope they don't release all the new releases as flippers now. I know this is a test run but it will be a terrible thing if I didn't have anymore artwork. These are also a lot more prone to scratches. I love how HD DVD haters are saying that Blu-ray has finally come around and released these when they did in '06. ridiculous.